Quick addition
OK, just read another stupendously stupid argument for why Yom Hashoa should be on Tisha B'Av:
"according tto the jewish religion tisha bav IS the national day of morning ... and to make your own days of morning... why not just make up a religion and hang a guy on a cross...."
I guess that means that this guy is going to stop fasting on Tzom Gedalya, Tanis Esther, will stop celebrating Chanukah and Purim and the like. I mean, any day or holiday that has been come up with after Tanach, essentially, "made up" can't really be held be by. I mean, doesn't that mean that the Halachic authorities that established these holidays and days of mourning, including all their halachot, were "making" their own stuff? What about additional fast days that are issued by Rabbis throught out the year, eg against the Disengagement Plan? Are those Rabbis, Apichorasis, essentially "making" stuff up? If you want to make an argument for Tisha B'Av, you're going to have to do better than shoot yourself in the foot. Yom Hashoa and other additional established days of mourning do not come at the expense of Tisha B'Av. They are in addition to... What we commomerote during the Sefira is not what its purpose when it was given to us by G-d, but we changed that, or let me say, we gave it additional meaning. We cannot change G-d given halacha. It's only supposed to be the 49 days between the 2 times when Jews were allowed to bring the Korban Pesach to the Bait Hamikdash. Yet, it was been established that we commemorate the fall of Rabbi Akiva's students (Lag B'Omer is an additional celebration and commemoration, isn't it?). As another blogger has mentioned, and I agree with her completely, that it has been a long established right for the Jewish community, as a whole, to establish additional days of mourning, for repentance, and for celebration.... To use the above argument is to also negate the fact, or say it was halchically incorrect, when the Russian Jews (many of them Chasidim) had the tradition of adding Hallel on days in which they survived pogroms and other forms of persecution...
-Until later
"according tto the jewish religion tisha bav IS the national day of morning ... and to make your own days of morning... why not just make up a religion and hang a guy on a cross...."
I guess that means that this guy is going to stop fasting on Tzom Gedalya, Tanis Esther, will stop celebrating Chanukah and Purim and the like. I mean, any day or holiday that has been come up with after Tanach, essentially, "made up" can't really be held be by. I mean, doesn't that mean that the Halachic authorities that established these holidays and days of mourning, including all their halachot, were "making" their own stuff? What about additional fast days that are issued by Rabbis throught out the year, eg against the Disengagement Plan? Are those Rabbis, Apichorasis, essentially "making" stuff up? If you want to make an argument for Tisha B'Av, you're going to have to do better than shoot yourself in the foot. Yom Hashoa and other additional established days of mourning do not come at the expense of Tisha B'Av. They are in addition to... What we commomerote during the Sefira is not what its purpose when it was given to us by G-d, but we changed that, or let me say, we gave it additional meaning. We cannot change G-d given halacha. It's only supposed to be the 49 days between the 2 times when Jews were allowed to bring the Korban Pesach to the Bait Hamikdash. Yet, it was been established that we commemorate the fall of Rabbi Akiva's students (Lag B'Omer is an additional celebration and commemoration, isn't it?). As another blogger has mentioned, and I agree with her completely, that it has been a long established right for the Jewish community, as a whole, to establish additional days of mourning, for repentance, and for celebration.... To use the above argument is to also negate the fact, or say it was halchically incorrect, when the Russian Jews (many of them Chasidim) had the tradition of adding Hallel on days in which they survived pogroms and other forms of persecution...
-Until later
posted by Olah Chadasha @ 5/07/2005 10:54:00 PM
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6 Comments:
There is a difference between godolei hatorah deciding the need for a chag, fast, or rememberance, then the Israeli government making a national day of mourning. I will say I found it upsetting standing at my office window listening to the siren looking at the stopped world on the streets below except for the chareidim who seemed unmoved. I mean once you're outside and this is going on around you - be a part. But, growing up in the states i didn't hear the term "yom hashoa" until i was in my teens.
We do not have a rememberance day for the Spanish Inquisition, or the major pogroms, or the expulsion from each country we were expelled from, or the Chevron massacre, or the...
I could keep going. Our history has been a series of different cultures clashing with ours...
OC,
I actually agree with you. I think the Shoah deserves a sepearte day. I think the Charedim's insensetivity is terrible.
Part of the underlying issues are:
- An Israeli secular government (that often contains charedi parties!) deciding on a national day of mourning.
- The Jewish people also deciding on other important events - YH, YY and Hallel issues etc.
- Charedi Rabbonim's recalcitrance to tell their constituents to leave Eastern Europe, and their reluctance to deal with this issue.
TRK
2r,
yes that is true that gdolei hatorah are the ones that decide on big issues, so I want to know, where does that line go?? there are a lot of rabbies who will argue that it is an important day.
I totally agree with you that seeing the Charedim walk during the siren is upsetting. More than that it is also Chilul Ha-shem. I heard that one from a Frum Rabbi. he said that in his house he does not stand but in public whne other ppl can see him he makes sure to stop to not cause the looks. unfortunetly, it has become the way for the Charedim in israel do demonstrate, and it's just a shame that it with chilul ha-shem in the proccess.
it goes with the chareidim's ripping flags off of passing cars' windows during yom ha'atzmaut season.
i think your comment on my blog was right, OC, we need to talk about something less vitriolic. like maybe chareidi draft exemptions? or the withdrawel from gush katif?
Menachem,
Don't get me started.
Or maybe I will get started. We'll see!
i think Yom Hashoah is especially important because of the very fact that the Holocaust was only 60 years ago and was an event that changed the Jewish world, it is not enough just to remember it on Tisha B'av, it needs a day of its own because of what it was.
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