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Saturday, July 09, 2005

Propoganda Gone Bad

I have already written a very extensive opinion post about my views on the disengagement, but this has specifically to do with the slogans and methods being used to protest the disengagement. I believe that people (CIVILIANS) should protest the disengagement, if they believe that it is wrong. The people in Gaza and Northern Shomron need to know that they are not alone. However, b/c of how it is being protested, I now refuse to sport anything orange. I'll explain to you why. I was very open to wearing an orange bracelet or have a ribbon on my car. I wanted people to know that I am with and support the innocent people being effected by these most difficult times. However, that's not what the orange stands for anymore. Now, if you wear orange, you're associated with violence and stupidity, and I don't want to be associated with that.
I do not condone road-blocking. I think it is a dangerous and useless method of protest . Let's take a look a recent example. Some group of people who are against the Hitnatkut put nails and oil across the road during their road blocking protest. This was not half-assed or just coincidence. This was planned treachery. My husaband spoke to our mechanic. He's been an expert for over 25 years. So, as our car was being tuned up, the mechanic explained how dangerous this stunt was. Apparently, if a car starts braking when they go over a nail (in order to, obviously, avoid a potentially dangerous skid) and then run over oil, the oil combined with the braking and the nail stuck in the tire can cause a spark. This can cause a potentially deathly dangerous fire and/or explosion . It is only by the grace of G-d that this didn't actually happen and nobody got killed.
So, here's a group that is supposedly protesting against an event, b/c they believe they will save lives, and are actually very much exdangering lives with their antics. There is also the fact that road-blocking has already resulted in fire trucks and ambulances not being able to get through to emergencies. Last time I checked, playing with people's lives to prove a point doesn't really do anything. It doesn't bring anybody to your cause. It only causes people to be enraged and very much annoyed. Going against this argument by saying that road blocking may, potentially, theoretically save lives by not having the disengagement happen is very weak and very dangerous. When you put immediate lives in danger, and say that the potential to save lives takes precedent, you are playing a very dangerous and extremely morally questionable game. As is saying that the end justifies any means necessary.
Let's go on to the next method being used: propogandic slogans. Let's take a look at some of the more recent examples that have moved past "Yehudi Lo Migaresh Yehudi" (Translation: A Jew does not expel another Jew):
"Sharon is a dictator"
"Upcoming forecast-expect Kassam rockets to rain down in your neighborhood if we dont stop the gov't's plan."
"With no Israeli military presence in Gaza and northern Samaria, terrorists will have operational freedom, with nothing to stop the terrorists from planning and implementing attacks against Israeli population centers like Ashkelon, Beer Sheva and along the Coastal Plane. "
"The expulsion plan is being conducted unilaterally; there is no coordination with the PA. This is in stark contrast to the 1982 evacuation of the Sinai, which was conducted under the auspices of an internationally accepted peace treaty and with the full cooperation of the Egyptian government. "

These are just to name a few. Now, I've been in plenty of organizations in the past, so I know that simple slogans are necessary to get a point across to the masses. However, those slogans need to be based on some logical basis, so as to build a real basis for debate and argument. Unfortunately, this is not in the plans of anti-disengagement groups. They want to paint the worse possible picture for people, so that they won't question what you're saying, especially if it seems that what you're saying is making sense. Hmmm... where does that sound familiar? "Avoid Jewish department stores; buy at Christian ones. " Simple yet effective. Logical, not in the slightest, but you can't really stop to argue with it. Now, the fact that these slogans contradict all hints of reality does not seem apparrant to those of you who are anti-disengagement. Why would they? They seem to be pretty logical, rational, and realistic to me. Wait, you mean I should stop and question whether this has any validity? You mean, I should stop and see whether what I'm saying actually contradicts the previous statement that I just said?!? Now, if you started with slogan like "Disengagement is a reward for terrorism", I'd very much stop, listen, and debate with what you had to say. That is a logical start to a very serious topic. But, to use inflammatory and simple emotionally charging phrases only plays people into your corner for so long. It's only a matter of time before people stop and think about what you just said. Wait a minute, kassam rockets will fall down if the disengagement goes through? They can be falling in my neighborhood? Oh my G-d!! But, wait, they were falling there before. How was 20 people living in a Northern Shomron neighborhood actually strategically stopping kassams from falling? There's nothing stopping them NOW!!! I could go on like this for a while. But, that's for another time. I just wanted to make you aware that as you and all of us are being faced with this tough time, it's extremely important to stop and really think about the slogans, posters, tee-shirts, bracelets, etc that you're being fed. Does it represent truth and logic? Or, is just another 60 second ad. created for you to "Just do it"? THINK about it!


At 9:50 AM, Blogger Cosmic X said...

"Some group of people who are against the Hitnatkut put nails and oil across the road during their road blocking protest."

Until the perpetrators are apprehended I would be careful on whom to place the blame. See what I wrote here.

' "Yehudi Lo Migaresh Yehudi" (Translation: A Jew does not divorce another Jew)'

Actually the translation is "A Jew does not expel another Jew". Jews divorce other Jews all the time, unfortunately.

At 11:16 AM, Blogger menachem said...

i think there is a slogan "the disengagement is a reward for terror,"

not that i agree with them, but here's the rundown of the reasoning behind the slogans.

"sharon is a dictator." this one started after sharon ignored the results of the likud referendum, which he had promised to uphold, and after he refused to hold a nationwide referendum.

"yehudi lo megaresh yehudi" is pretty simple, i'm not sure why you'd argue with that. it's just appealing to jews' humanitarian nature, saying that we can't kick our own brothers out of our homes.

"with no major israeli military..." ok, i'm not sure what kind of postersized bumper sticker you were reading off of, but this one's pretty simple, and based on boogi ayalon's statements when he was chief of staff.

"the expulsion plan is being conducted..."
this is one of the most rational arguements against unilateral disengagement. i can't see what problem you possibly have with this.

At 1:26 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Well, see, here we are. Exactly where I wanted us to be. As I've said, I could argue with each point, but that isn't for this post. I'll deal with it at another time. Secondly, I don't have a problem with Yehudi Lo... I wanted to see how we've moved past that. And, not having a referendum does NOT a dictatorship make. He should have kept his promise, but not keeping it does not make him a dictator. Also, not having a referendum protects a democracy. I can see you're playing the devil's advocate there, b/c you have agreed w/ me extensively on the wrongs of referendums.
Cosmic, literally, Migaresh means divorce. It has been changed to expel for the purposes of the protests. You can look it up if you want. Secondly, I did not put blame for the nails on oil on any-one. A group did do it. We just don't know who yet. If you will reread my post, I did NOT name names or place blame on any-one.

At 2:54 PM, Blogger Cosmic X said...

Shemot 11:1:

א ויאמר יהוה אל-משה, עוד נגע אחד אביא על-פרעה ועל-מצרים--אחרי-כן, ישלח אתכם מזה: כשלחו--כלה, גרש יגרש אתכם מזה.

1 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Yet one plague more will I bring upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence; when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.

gimel-resh-shin in the Torah means expulsion(thrust you out). The Egyptians did not divorce us.

Devarim ch. 24 (divorce):

א כי-יקח איש אשה, ובעלה; והיה אם-לא תמצא-חן בעיניו, כי-מצא בה ערות דבר--וכתב לה ספר כריתת ונתן בידה, ושלחה מביתו. ב ויצאה, מביתו; והלכה, והיתה לאיש-אחר. ג ושנאה, האיש האחרון, וכתב לה ספר כריתת ונתן בידה, ושלחה מביתו; או כי ימות האיש האחרון, אשר-לקחה לו לאשה. ד לא-יוכל בעלה הראשון אשר-שלחה לשוב לקחתה להיות לו לאשה, אחרי אשר הטמאה--כי-תועבה הוא, לפני יהוה; ולא תחטיא, את-הארץ, אשר יהוה אלהיך, נתן לך נחלה. {ס}

1 When a man taketh a wife, and marrieth her, then it cometh to pass, if she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some unseemly thing in her, that he writeth her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house, 2 and she departeth out of his house, and goeth and becometh another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband hateth her, and writeth her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, who took her to be his wife; 4 her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD; and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

No mention of gimel-resh-shin. It seems that the original meaning of gimel-resh-shin is expel, and only later the root was used for divorce.

You did say that it was a group of people who are against hitnatkut. This could be, but it could also be a provocation of the Shabak.

At 4:12 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Thanks for correcting my mis-translation, Cosmic. I just started Ulpan about 5 months ago, so I've only learned the modern translation of Migaresh. I'll correct my mistake.
Cosmic, starting to point fingers at the Shabak is already starting a complicated conspiracy theory. Ockham's Razor: "All things being equal, The simplest explanation tends to be the right one." Is there some deep set conspiracy set forth by Shabak or another Gov organization, etc, or was it some protestors that set out to make a real scene? You be the judge of what's more likely. Anyways, even if there's the minute possibility that it was a provocation of Shabak, that's still a group, is it not?

At 4:32 PM, Blogger menachem said...

not having a referendum for the sake of preserving democracy is an extremely valid position, and i think the right one. but what sharon did was hold a referendum, and ignore its results. how much do you wanna bet that had the likud referendum gone the other way, sharon would be pointing to it every other day as justification.

but that's not the point i'm trying to make here. you can argue with the slogans all you want, but the fact remains that they're valid points, and must be answered to. this statement of yours "However, those slogans need to be based on some logical basis, so as to build a real basis for debate and argument. Unfortunately, this is not in the plans of anti-disengagement groups." is simply not true. right or wrong, these are valid bases for argument.

At 4:51 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

No, I dont agree with that these are valid bases for argument. They are all, excuse me for using this phrase, Nah Duh!! statements. Again, I can go into it in more detail, and I'm thinking that my next post has to be that since this is what is happening. For a comment page, it's not the place to start. Remember what happened with TRK? Just give me a day or two to get all my facts and thoughts in order, and I'll post on it.
But, Menachem, I want to point something out. The entire bases for my post is what you're doing right now. THINKING about what they're feeding us, and I should have written, from both sides. It's turned into a point where if you're anti-disengagement, you don't or, more bluntly, can't have a valid reason for it, and you must be a horrible person and some blind leftists who, either, doesn't care or doesn't see that the country will be ripped apart if the disengagement goes through. That's just filthy rhetoric and mud slinging that achieves nothing. Just as much as if I were in the States, and I said I don't believe in gay marriage, I'd be called a homophobe, etc. It's just not right. Just b/c I'm for the disengagement does not make me a leftist. It does not make me a bad Jew or a traitor. Just as not everybody who anti-disengagement is a ultra-rightest or even right at all. That's the point I'm trying to make here. It's time to stop and think about what's being fed to us, and the names that are being called at people who don't agree with what you say. That's just wrong, and doesn't get anybody anywhere.

At 2:25 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

OC: Did you ever stop for a second and think was propoganda is being fed to the Israeli public by the Government and Media in FAVOR of the disengagement? OK, so you accuse the right wing of propoganda phrases...stop and think about whats being blased at the country right now:

1. Whoever is against the disengagement is a threat to decomracy (Ariel Sharon)

2. Road blocking is sedition. (A.G. Mazuz)

3. Vitaly Vovnovy gets arrested for REGISTERING the Bayit Lemu website. He's not the webmaster not editor of the content. He's been in jail over a week - charges: TREASON.

4. Disengagement is neccessary for Israel's security (Ariel Sharon). Can I please hear some proof from someone in the IDF? Military Intelligence? Can I hear a debate? Was there ever a honest and pen debate? Instead, all sorts of things are going on far from the public's eye -- reinforcing rooves of 39 additional Israeli towns around Gaza, connecting them to the Kassam early warning system.

5. The Northern Shomron area will be evacuated from Israeli troops and will de-facto receive mini-statehood. IF the missles start coming over (and there's no reason to assume they won't) then for Israel to invade these areas is an act of WAR. No one cares that the missles were shot at us in the first place. Same as Gush Katif. It became acceptable to shoot missles at us, and over time, everyone knows that we can't return a disproportionate response. We've lost our edge.

6. Since you're relatively new in town, let me tell you about the Shabak. Ever heard of Avishai Raviv? Or is that a right-wing conspiracy? How come I personally know the road-blockers, yet no one has any clue who through nails on the road? In fact, no one I know would want to think of nails on the road SPECIFICALLY because of the reasons you wrote. Which leads me to my next point:

The Gush Katif hotel eviction. Did you know that Nadia Matar requested from the police to remove Itamar Ben Gvir and his hooligans from the hotel a week before the eviction? Guess what? The police IGNORED her. Why? They WANTED a big political story of the "crazies" in the hotel. I KNOW most of the people evicted from the hotel. They all said -- a group of Itamar Ben Gvir hooligans came out of nowhere, refused to leave, and caused the whole "uproar" of what happened. Please note: less than 24 hours before the raid and eviction, the police arrive and escort Ben-Gvir out of Gush Katif. Why? He works for them...to rile up his hooligans...and make people like you think (and alot of the Israeli public) that the hotel was full of fanatical crazies.

Bottom line: The right wing slogans are nothing compared to the dirty tricks of the shabak, or the government's propoganda, or the admittedly leftist media. Israel is the only country where the media is the watchgaurd of the Left...and the Disengagement. Ten minutes after its over, they will turn full force on Sharon, and the Left will use the Disengagement as a springboard to return to '67 lines.

At 2:57 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Jameel, again, you've missed my point in order to spread the good word of the anti-disengagement. I wrote that we all need to stop and think what's being fed to us from both sides. I did not come to my decisions by reading the news-papers or watching the news. I came to them through research and reading. As I told Menachem, I will post more on this some time this weak. Everybody uses rhetoric to gain support. That's a fact of politics. The reason I singled out the anti-disengagement crowd is b/c I believe they should exist. Again, as I've written time again (yet, you seem to not see), I believe that protests should be held, but I don't believe that it is being gone about the right way. As such, they will and have lost support. What you and the rest of the anti-disengagement don't see is that on the bell curve of the Israeli public, the anti-disengagement groups are aiming for people that are slighting right of center (in the gray area). That's the wrong direction to go. You need to gain people who are slightly LEFT of center. The way things are going now, that's not going to happen.

At 3:57 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

OC: Why do you think I'm ignoring your comments? Your point was very clear: You don't wear orange because you think the way the anti-disengagement point of view is being "sold" is: "Propoganda Gone Bad"

1. "Propoganda" Everything being presented is not based on logic or fact.

2. "Bad" -- All of "propoganda" is bad, opposite of good.

Therefore, I presented the following points:

1. To call the anti-disengagement movement "bad propoganda" is to see Israeli politics in a vacuum. The Israeli government and media make it impossible for you to see their viewpoint as anything BUT "propoganda".

2. The Israeli government has their own "propoganda" machine which is working overtime.

3. You blast the anti-disengagement people for putting nails on the road. I gave clear examples of how this does not look like the work of anti-disengagement people, rather that of the government.

The above has nothing to do with presenting the viewpoint against the disengagement, rather the entire framework of what you see is biased.

To tell you the truth, I'm surprised you haven't written about the "Lynch" yet - and how that's another reason you won't wear orange. While you may believe that wearing orange associates you with "violence and stupidity", that makes a whole lot of violent and stupid people out there.

Last point: Your bell curve analysis is incorrect. The left of center of the Israeli JEWISH population is less than 30% of the Israeli population. We are not bothering to target the left of center, because demographically, its not important (in the short run). Working with the center and right of center is definitly the correct way to statistically work the system -- and its been proven to work in 1996 and 2001.

At 5:24 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Jameel, first of all, obviously you have way too much time on your hands, seeing as you write this much while at work. The likud a little bit slow these days? Second of all, you're taking a lot of what I said out of context. Again, you want to play conspiracy theories b/c it will help to not have to see that things are very much on the verge, if not already, getting out of hand. Also, I was speaking specifically to the gray area of people who have not decided on where they stand. Obviously, you missed that point. Aiming at right of center is pretty pointless b/c they are the area most likely to come to your side. I have no purpose for going into things that never happened, nor, for the last time, do I have any intentions of going back down a dirt road with you when it will lead to a dead end. But, I highly encourage you to keep going. Maybe, you'll make a convincing argument to some-one else. You just keep hitting a bunch of pot holes and dead ends over here.

At 9:41 PM, Blogger Chai18 said...

"Sharon is a dictator"-while he may not be a dictator per se, his recent action s haven't been the most democratic, anyone who disagrees with him is kicked out, parties are bribed to support his plans and he holds referendums, promises to obey their results and then doesn't. this doesn't sound like a healthy democracy to me, but the again its not like Sharon is acting any better then any of his predecessors, sadly :(

At 10:09 PM, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

First of all welcome to politics... yes what Sharon has been doing in the past year doesn't seem to us like something we would do.. but then again most politics are like that.. he hasn't done anything that is against the law. More than that.. the fact that he has survived this long just shows how well he knows how to play the political game.

If there is a problem anywhere it might be in the system As Churchill pointed out "Democracy is the worst form of Govt. except for all those others that have been tried"

That doesn't make Sharon a dictator, it makes him (maybe sadly as you point out) a good politicion.

At 11:27 AM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

OY: You don't have a defeatist and call Sharon a good politician. Politicians don't have to be corrupt, immoral sleazebags, who would sell their mothers and children for an interview with Galei Tzahal. Its just unfortunate that the vast majority are.

Od Lo Ovda Tikvateinu! :-)

At 1:36 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

"I'd sell my soul for a Formula 1 race car... Nah, changed my mind. Ha Ha Ha."
"Bart, stop teasing Satan."

At 2:28 PM, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Jameel - Even IF what you say is true - big IF's since:
a. the court system in this country (ya I know they are also run by Sharon and it's all a Shabak Conspiracy) Have yet to charge him will anything yet.
b. Immoral Sleazebag?? I wouldn't even know how to respond to that.. (I stopped silly name calling in 6th Grade).
c. "Selling his mother and children ETC.. " Something tells me that the Prime Minister doesn't have to do much to get himself on the Mass Media (wait a sec. didn't we blame him not to long ago of avoiding the press??)

anyways... even if they were true at most he is a criminal and still far from beeing a Dictator so everything you have said is Moot.

Your turn!
-עולה ישן


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