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Thursday, November 10, 2005

Let's Talk About...

On another blog, I read about their disapproval with how the disengaged settlers are being treated. Well, I'm going to talk about it from the opposite point of view. I'm going to talk about how badly soldiers and officers are being treated by the Yesha, far right wing, and over-all protestors of the Disengagement.

But, before I get to that. I would like to stress that what's happened with the settlers is a lot more complicated than most people are make it out to be. There is no doubt that the government made some serious mistakes with their planning in regards to how to handle the settlers after the Disengagement. However, they started to get their act together fairly quickly. I cannot expose my sources, but it has become known that there are a number of disengaged settlers who have consciously decided to not accept government funds or reimbursements. It seems to be an effort of continuing the protest against the Disengagement. They have said that accepting the funds would be accepting that the Disengagement happened. Now, this is an extremely small percentage of settlers. However, it became known that some among this group went to the media and reported that they were being treated poorly by the government. Another example comes from one the communities that decided to build another settlement together up north. Working with the government up there, it was agreed that the homes there would start out at 60 sq.meters. Until the time that they'd be built, they were going to live in a tent city. The government actually went ahead and enlarged the homes, and they came out to be 90 sq.meters. However, this wasn't acceptable to the community, and they demanded that they be 120. Now, they're publically complaining that they're stuck in the tent city for longer than they promised.
What I'm trying to get at here, is that it's much more complicated than what people know and read about. There have been a lot of screw ups, but the government is not 100% to blame for what has happened. It is not a cut and dry story.

Next, as I read another comment to the aforementioned blog, I agreed with what he said, and it made me want to supplament with remarks with the current phenomenon that is happening to soldiers; post disengagement. Now, what I will tell you is not being done by the settlers but by people around the country. It would seem to be that there are scores around this took the anti-disengagement catch phrase, "Yehudi Lo Migaresh Yehudi" to its logical conclusion. If a Jew doesn't expel another Jews, then one who does must not be Jewish. Thus, you don't have to treat him with the respect that you would afford a fellow Jew. Or, even more so, since he's not Jewish, he doesn't get the rights that another Jew should get. The Disengagement protest was carried out in such a way that there are many that may feel that it's almost against halacha to stop now or admit that it happened. Rabbis across the country were teaching and nailing it into their students' heads that G-d would not let the Disengagement take place, or that Mashiach would come before it would happen. Well, now that it has happened, there are one of two ways for them to look at it. Well, if your Rabbi told you that there was no way G-d would let the Disengagement would happen, and you believed them so much... What does that say about your faith if you admit it happened? Even more so, what does that say about G-d...? Or, instead of looking at these extremely deep moral questions that these Rabbis have caused (for no reason), the easiest thing would be is take that anger out on the soldiers. The soldiers went against G-d's will. There is no Teshuva for that. For example, in shuls. Let's take a look at some examples.

1) Most of you probably heard about this "incident", but those of you outside of Israel probably have not heard about this. On the Friday night after Rosh Hashana, a General went with his children to daven at the Kotel. Some-one or some people noticed him and who he was. They began throwing things at him, including chairs. The people who werent' actively throwing things at him (and, in effect, his children since they were beside him) stood around and watched. It got so bad that he was forced to leave. FORCED TO LEAVE DAVENING... AT THE KOTEL.

2) A group of soldiers went to daven in Hevron, at Meoret HaMachpela, for Kol Nidrei on Yom Kippur. They were forced to leave. (Now, as a side note, the Hevron community is nuts and have been known to attack soldiers in the past. But, this was a new low, even for them.)

3) In the Northern Shomron, soldiers are being warned not to try to Tremp (hitch-hike) at known spots. They're being told that they won't be picked up. And, if they are, there's the threat they will be thrown out of the car in dangerous areas.

4) All over the country, there are shuls that are now refusing to give soldiers Aliyot or any other honors. At some, they are even refusing to acknowledge or count their presence as part of the Minyan.

These are only 4 examples of what is happening. There are two most likely consequences of these actions. One, it will die out, people will come to their sences, and the majority will push out these radical elements. The other option is that they'll have to break off into another sect of Judaism.
(A hat tip to Anonymous for bringing this up. To quote him: "the current right-wing invective is horrible. it is destructive, destroys achdus, and leaves a bitter taste. what happened to all that ahava krap? only when they agree to your platform? gimme a break.you want to oppose govt policy with all your heart and soul, go right ahead. just remember that we are all on the same side here.")

Shabbat Shalom.


At 8:48 PM, Blogger amechad said...

Is 3 and 4 really true?

And these are some crazy wackos but you do simplify the problems some have had with the government bureacracy. The government also screwed up.

However, in my mind, the lesson of the story is that what the government giveth, the government taketh away.

Hence we need more free-market economics not only for Israel's economy but also its security.

At 11:50 AM, Blogger Nick Roberts said...

Hi Olah Chadasha, I'm looking for someone who could give me more info on citizenship and immigration in canada and I came accross your post about this post. Although it wasn't exactly what I was looking for, it definitely gave me a new perspective. Right now anything that looks like citizenship and immigration in canada would be of interest to me since I'm thinking of starting a new life in Canada and want to be as informed as possible about my options.

If you know of any other blogs or websites that I could check out to get some more info on citizenship and immigration in canada, I'd be very grateful. I really enjoyed your blog - thanks for the great read.

At 3:14 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Am, it has been verified that 3 and 4 are true. I do oversimplify for a reason. To show how complicated it really is. I totally agree with you. I am also a firm believer in a free market economy, and that is why I was so pist when Netanyahu made that Mickey Mouse move and quit as Finance Minister. But, I believe that very good moves have been. I mean we have Stanley Fisher as head of the Banks now. This is a man that gave up a multi million dollar job at a multi billion dollar corp of Citi Group.
But, my point is that people who were agains the Disengagement have made a very illogical assumption. They think that the commanders and the Army's entire brain capacity went to lunch when the Disengagement was passed by the government. Yeah... That makes perfect sense.

At 10:54 PM, Blogger Nick Roberts said...

Hi Olah Chadasha, like many other people, I'm scouring the internet in search of detailed info on citizenship and immigration in canada. There seems to be a lot of info out there on the process and which lawyer to use, but I can't seem to find much info about which part of Canada is best and whether there are actually job prospects for new immigrants in Canada that take your qualifications into consideration. Anyway, I did manage to find one useful site about citizenship and immigration in canada that seems to shed some light on the topic, but I still need more info. I thought that maybe your post about this post would be useful and although it wasn't exactly what I was looking for, it did give me some new insights. Thanks for a great read.

At 4:03 PM, Blogger Greg said...

Olah, very nice post. I'm planning on attacking Kach activities here and in America with a post I will title: American Jews: Stop Supporting Kach. I agree with you on every single point you made in your post. Good work!

ps. Nick: hope u have a nice time in Canada. There's no war, no economic pressure, no problems like the ones here. Just don't say I didn't tell you so when your kids encounter "anti-Zionist" Arabs in firm control of their campuses.

At 4:33 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Hi OC: Nice to see you posting again.

I just loaded up my van 5 minutes ago with 7 boxes of coats for Katif Refugees, who don't have any winter clothing....thanks to the Disengagement. Why? All their clothes are in "storage"...and that includes all those who "played by the rules and packed up and left according to plan, but still have all their stuff in storage."

For every story you can bring about a margin minority of refugees who refuse to accept government support, I can personally bring you a hundred showing you how evil the government's policy has been. Yes, EVIL. That the refugees had to go all the way to the SUPREME COURT last week in order to get the 50,000 NIS "advance" payment (which was promised to them by the government). NOW, once the government has lost its case, (what case did they have? Except to aggravate people!? Its the damn law - that THEY PASSED) -- they "magically" are able to hand deliver checks to the refugees. Guess what? It wasn't so hard after all for the government to deliver the checks (last week after losing the Bagatz) - so what the heck took them 3 months??? A government which is able to evacuate all of Gush katif in 1 week of all inhabitans, yet can't deliver preliminary compensation checks within 3 months? That's CRIMINAL.

Concerning the soldiers; Erev Yom Kippur the IDF called me up to provide for 12 soliders a seuda mafseket. My wife and I immediately arranged meals for all...yet, my kids still grilled the soldiers over where/what they did this summer...and why they did what they did. To tell you the truth, when 19 year old soldiers are grilled by a ten year old and don't have any answers, and were EMBARRASSED by their own behavior...thats very pathetic.

I give trempim to soliders, yet I'm totally ambivalent about shuls not giving aliyot.

At 5:02 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

I don't think it's embarrassment more than how to properly talk to a 10 year old about what happened. There's no reason to be embarrassed about doing your job. Maybe, they're just (sick and) tired of answering questions to justify their actions and behavior. Maybe, they want some peace and quiet and have some-one pat them on the back and tell them, "You did your job. It was probably the toughest thing you will ever have to do in your life. But, you did it well, with dignity, and Kiddush Hashem. I'm proud of you." Have you said that to a soldier yet? Or, did you snicker or tell your kid kindly not to ask them questions about this right after Yom Kippur? How have you explained the situation to your children? Did you tell them that the soldiers who are obeying orders are evil or that they should have disobeyed their orders? Really? Be honest. Have your kids ever come home and said they heard bad things about the soldiers? Did you dispell their fears or explain to them what was going on?

I mean, c'mon. Did you ask the soldiers if they were embarrassed about talking about their role in the Disengagement? Or, are you just making assumptions? How would you expect them to talk or answer your kids in a way they would understand? They're 19 years old, for crying out loud!

About the government. Again, I'm not saying what's happened is right. I'll say it's wrong right along with you. However, to say that the government should have been experts on how to treat this situation is rediculous. To say that this was supposed to be perfect and not have some huge pot holes along the way is unrealistic.

What upsets me the most right now is the way they've been abandoned by many of those that protested the Disengagement. Bringing signs, camping out, wearing a ribbon, and hanging out with friends is all well and good. But, the job didn't end when the TV cameras turned off. The real work is what you're talking about. Helping them get basic necessities like warm clothes, books and school supplies for the kids, etc. If parents are having trouble dealing with the beaurocracy and/or finding work because they can't get baby-sitters or don't have time to do everything, volunteer to help. Why do I bring this up? B/c in school right now, the Ta Katom orginization is rearing up to protest any planned Disengagement in the West Bank. That's all well and good, but we're not talking about a fad that you throw out like last year's clothes. The Disengagement isn't even cold yet, and they're already moving onto the "next big thing". There's still so much work to be done with the people of Gush Katif.

But, you know as well as I do that that's not what will get people to sign up. It's too much hard work to do what I've suggested. Besides, it's better selling to students to get them enraged and empassioned about the next big thing. Having gatherings, screaming chants, and wearing cool orange T-shirts, and holding signs is much more fun and a hell of a lot easier that doing the real work.

I know I've rambled on in what should have been another post, but this is what's on my mind. By the way, I never asked. What's your job in the Army, anyways?

At 6:55 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

I'll answer everything next week, must run home.

The IDF called me up in my civilian volunteer capacity which is connected to my job in the army (classified to the point I won't write in on a blog.) Drop me an email, and I'll be more than happy to say.

FYI: My kids (5) uncles are all career soldiers and policemen.

At 8:33 PM, Blogger Greg said...

Jameel...just wanted to let u know, I too, was against the disengagement from start to finish and am still angry and frustrated over the tragedy that took place this summer. However, I agree with OC's original article in its entirety. Obviously you, too, have your points-which are quite persuasive.

I do think, though, that when you say "For every story you can bring about a margin minority of refugees who refuse to accept government support, I can personally bring you a hundred showing you how evil the government's policy has been" you're over-exagurating.

Shabbat shalom, Eitan.

At 10:37 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Regreg23: How I wish I were over-exagerrating.

I just got off the phone (literally) with the head of a high school in the Shomron who is housing 23 familes from Nezarim.

Seems that despite the law having no clause whatsoever directing refugees in any direction, the Netzarim refugees who want to move to Ariel are being stonewalled by the government, and the high school is out 50,000 NIS a month. Why? Government doesn't want them to move there. The government's position is against the law.

Every day a new story gets passed my way. I wish it were an exageration, but its not. Last night (motzei shabbat) I spent my evening driving winter coats to refugees in Shavei Shomron...why doesn't the government help with this, and its a completely private endevour?

I spoke to friends of mine from Neve Deklaim this morning; their breakfront from their home in Neve Dekalim was totally destroyed by the movers, and boxes were crushed, tables broken...for no reason that I can possibly imagine. I *personally& loaded the furniture onto the moving truck in Neve Dekalim...everything was packed and wrapped. Yet for some reason, every day I hear another horror story of how people's posessions were destroyed by the movers.

Or how about the family from Ganei Tal that had permits to go back into Gush Katif to pack up their home, but the police didn't allow them in (like they tried to do to me, despite me having official documentation)...and while they were waiting in at Kissufim, the bulldozer destroyed their home, with everything in it.

These stories are the tip of the iceberg. I hear them daily. This is whats really going on here.

At 4:12 PM, Blogger Greg said...

Man...seems you have a strong point, "Jameel". I'm simply not as aware of the state of the "refugees".

On another subject I'm tagging all the Israeli bloggers(including u OC and OY): who will u vote for in the upcoming elections and why?

At 12:05 AM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Regreg, I understand that the refugees are not being treated, and, for the most part, it is not their faults. I never said that. What I was trying to point out is that there are more things going on then can be said in a sentence or two; on both sides.

As per your tag, I can't answer for two reasons. I'm still an American in the sense that it's my vote, and I don't have to tell. Secondly, I just don't have the foggiest idea.

Happy Gobble Gobble Day!!!

At 9:12 PM, Blogger Greg said...

Good for you! You're sticking to your principles. But let me put it another way: If you could vote, who wouldn't you vote for?

Be'tikva, Eitan.
p.s. Get the info on who I'm voting for and why on "HearOIsrael.blogspot.com"

At 9:23 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

I wouldn't vote for Peretz, that's for damn sure.

At 6:04 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

regreg23 and OC: Latest JPost update on the totally sorry state of the refugees.


At 11:56 PM, Blogger Greg said...

"jameel", I checked out the story and the best adjective I can come up with is "depressing." What's more depressing is that Sharon will be re-elcted and will continue his "land-for-peace" policy in the end creating a Peres-tinian state.

Thanks for the info.



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