The Forgotten Palestine
It's always interesting when I read Pro-Palestinians and Palestinians' blogs about their rage regarding Israeli "occupation" of their home-land. Of course, to make their case even stronger, they go the route of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad and discuss Israel's occupation of all of "historical Palestine", which rightly belongs to the Palestinians. I have even encountered one Palestinian who stated that Palestinians have been living in Palestine for centuries before any Jews were there, and any history to the contrary is false. Therefore, his grand-father has the right to return, along with all Palestinian refugees, back to his old home and kick whoever lives there now out. Of course, there's no point in attempting to reason with a person like this since anything you say that contradicts his version of events will be called lies and fake and incorrect history. In essence, though, what these kinds of people are trying to do are vamp up their case for why the Jews are so evil and colonialist, and that all the Palestinians want is to get their ancient homes back. So, they shape history to conform to this way of thinking, and throw other facts aside in the hopes that there aren't thay many people out there who know the whole history. In fact, most Palestinians and Pro-Palestinians who make these kinds of claims don't know the real history themselves. Only the propaganda that they're bombarded with in school, in the streets, on the loud speakers, on their websites, etc. So, when I was confronted with this history alterator, something came to me. Something that shows the true anti-semetism in all of these arguments.
You see the maps in Palestinians' text books. You see the maps on the crest of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. You even the grafitti of the maps spray painted on Palestinians streets. What do you see? You see what they call the Palestinian state. Of course, you've noticed that the Palestinian state covers all of Israel; not the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Why? I've been told it's because that's the "hisorical state of Palestine" as belonging to the Palestinian people before there were any Jews. The only problem is that isn't the state of Palestine. Many Palestinians claim that their grand-parents and great-grand parents and so on were living in Palestine under Ottoman and British rule before any Jews came back. In essense, they claim that there were no Jews in Palestine before the Europeans came at the end of the 19th century. For the sake of argument, I'm not going to go into that. There's no point. The interesting part of the whole equation is that Palestine as they map it out in their text-books and in their terrorist groups isn't what Palestine was in the times they're trying to prove that it belonged to their ancestors.
At the very least, let's discuss the most recent map of Palestine before the 1947 Partition. When the British Mandate of Palestine came into effect in 1920, what is now Jordan was part of Palestine. In fact, when the Balfour Declaration was made, the Jews were supposed to get parts of the East Bank, all the way east to Amman. Why aren't the Palestinians screaming and fighting for their "homeland" of all of Palestine to be given back? Why aren't groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, etc committing terrorist attacks against Jordan to get that land back? Why aren't the Palestinian refugees and even the Palestinians who became Jordanian citizens, who are treated like second class citizens, fighting the Jordanian Heshimite Kingdom to allow a full right of return and the creation of the rightful Palestinian state? They don't even include it on their maps of Palestine. Why not? Now, if the answer were to be that "Well, there weren't any Palestinians living in that land". Then, I'd have to say that your claim that your Palestinian ancestors occupied Palestine before the Jews tried coming back is a farse.
Next, we go back a bit further to the start of when many Palestinians make their claims that the land was lived in by them before the Jews. Thus, making their claim to Palestine more legitimate than the Jews is the Ottoman Empire. First of all, The Ottomans referred to the whole region as Syria. The are of Palestine was divided into 3 different sections; the furthest southern section stretching south into the Sinai desert. That's the simple explanation, but it leads to an even more pressing discussion. Throughout the time in which Palestinians claim that they have a higher precedent of claim to the land of Palestine; the one which they study in their text books and put on their crests is not what Palestine looked like in the times they claim. Confused? Basically, they are using the borders drawn by the reall colonialists, the British to make their claim of the "historical state of Palestine". The borders they use to claim their state; the one with no Israel in site, are the borders drawn by the British when they changed the Mandate in 1923. This was after drawing up Trans-Jordan for the Heshemites.
It's just the most interesting phenomenan that the Palestinians claim that their historical Palestinian state is the one drawn up a little over 80 years ago, and they only make claims to the land on which Israel sits on now. So, the bottom line is this: Either, the Palestinians have a legitimate claim, as they say, to all of Palestine in which they must declare Jihad against Jordan and Egypt, perhaps even Syria and Lebanon, in order to gain all of their land back. Or, all they want is the land Israel currently sits on. Therefore, making their soul goal merely to wipe the Jews from the region and complete the Pan-Arab region. You decide.
The map of Palestine as printed by the PA. Notice that even-though it shades the West Bank and Jordan, there are no mention of any Jewish cities, and there is no Israel. Notice especially that these are the borders as created by the British and the UN, not the ones of "histoical Palestine".
This is a map of the Eastern Roman Empire. Notice that Palestine is written there, but what are its borders?
This is the Ottoman Empire. Again, play close attention to the borders of Palestine. Can't fine them? That's because the entire region is referred to as Syria. I wonder if that's the reason that Arab leaders in British Mandate Palestine said that they don't and have never wanted an independent Palestinian Arab state. They were simply part of "Greater Syria". Hmmm....
Notice how far down Palestine goes. But, be careful you don't fall down the rabbit hole...
The British Mandate.
Another look at it
(Map sources: Palestine Facts & PASSIA)
You see the maps in Palestinians' text books. You see the maps on the crest of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. You even the grafitti of the maps spray painted on Palestinians streets. What do you see? You see what they call the Palestinian state. Of course, you've noticed that the Palestinian state covers all of Israel; not the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Why? I've been told it's because that's the "hisorical state of Palestine" as belonging to the Palestinian people before there were any Jews. The only problem is that isn't the state of Palestine. Many Palestinians claim that their grand-parents and great-grand parents and so on were living in Palestine under Ottoman and British rule before any Jews came back. In essense, they claim that there were no Jews in Palestine before the Europeans came at the end of the 19th century. For the sake of argument, I'm not going to go into that. There's no point. The interesting part of the whole equation is that Palestine as they map it out in their text-books and in their terrorist groups isn't what Palestine was in the times they're trying to prove that it belonged to their ancestors.
At the very least, let's discuss the most recent map of Palestine before the 1947 Partition. When the British Mandate of Palestine came into effect in 1920, what is now Jordan was part of Palestine. In fact, when the Balfour Declaration was made, the Jews were supposed to get parts of the East Bank, all the way east to Amman. Why aren't the Palestinians screaming and fighting for their "homeland" of all of Palestine to be given back? Why aren't groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, etc committing terrorist attacks against Jordan to get that land back? Why aren't the Palestinian refugees and even the Palestinians who became Jordanian citizens, who are treated like second class citizens, fighting the Jordanian Heshimite Kingdom to allow a full right of return and the creation of the rightful Palestinian state? They don't even include it on their maps of Palestine. Why not? Now, if the answer were to be that "Well, there weren't any Palestinians living in that land". Then, I'd have to say that your claim that your Palestinian ancestors occupied Palestine before the Jews tried coming back is a farse.
Next, we go back a bit further to the start of when many Palestinians make their claims that the land was lived in by them before the Jews. Thus, making their claim to Palestine more legitimate than the Jews is the Ottoman Empire. First of all, The Ottomans referred to the whole region as Syria. The are of Palestine was divided into 3 different sections; the furthest southern section stretching south into the Sinai desert. That's the simple explanation, but it leads to an even more pressing discussion. Throughout the time in which Palestinians claim that they have a higher precedent of claim to the land of Palestine; the one which they study in their text books and put on their crests is not what Palestine looked like in the times they claim. Confused? Basically, they are using the borders drawn by the reall colonialists, the British to make their claim of the "historical state of Palestine". The borders they use to claim their state; the one with no Israel in site, are the borders drawn by the British when they changed the Mandate in 1923. This was after drawing up Trans-Jordan for the Heshemites.
It's just the most interesting phenomenan that the Palestinians claim that their historical Palestinian state is the one drawn up a little over 80 years ago, and they only make claims to the land on which Israel sits on now. So, the bottom line is this: Either, the Palestinians have a legitimate claim, as they say, to all of Palestine in which they must declare Jihad against Jordan and Egypt, perhaps even Syria and Lebanon, in order to gain all of their land back. Or, all they want is the land Israel currently sits on. Therefore, making their soul goal merely to wipe the Jews from the region and complete the Pan-Arab region. You decide.
The map of Palestine as printed by the PA. Notice that even-though it shades the West Bank and Jordan, there are no mention of any Jewish cities, and there is no Israel. Notice especially that these are the borders as created by the British and the UN, not the ones of "histoical Palestine".This is a map of the Eastern Roman Empire. Notice that Palestine is written there, but what are its borders?This is the Ottoman Empire. Again, play close attention to the borders of Palestine. Can't fine them? That's because the entire region is referred to as Syria. I wonder if that's the reason that Arab leaders in British Mandate Palestine said that they don't and have never wanted an independent Palestinian Arab state. They were simply part of "Greater Syria". Hmmm....Notice how far down Palestine goes. But, be careful you don't fall down the rabbit hole...
The British Mandate.
Another look at it
(Map sources: Palestine Facts & PASSIA)
posted by Olah Chadasha @ 3/31/2006 03:14:00 PM
Read Me By E-Mail
10 Comments:
Ah, here we go again. The endless throwing back and forth of "maps", "ancient history", "religious references" etc etc, to try and prove points that are irrelevant. Going back in time is not a soluttion: prior to 1776 there was no American People, does that mean all Americans should go back to their ancestral homelands, mainly in Europe? I don't think so.
The reality is that Israel exists and is here to stay. The reality is also that the Palestinians exist and won't just magically dissapear for the convenience of Israel. These people will also have to be housed.
Irrational, extremist elements exist on both sides but extremists aren't the majority mainstream. Rather than endlessly looking backward in time, it's actually time to look forward, toward a solution, not mutual destruction.
As regards solitarioh2005's experience, I have had a similar experience with a blogger ("Why Palestinians Usually Get It Wrong") who took exception to my blog and started blogspamming it. This is the first time in my three years of blogging that someone, out of sheer spite, has tried to take my blog down. So, you see, it happens on both sides... Blogging is supposed to be a purely "verbal", non-violent, non-aggressive activity but some still manage to try and damage someone else whom they disagree with. Very sad...
gert, I don't think you read my post very thoroughly. My point was not to say my argument for the land is better than theirs. I don't believe I made any sort of references to that. What I was trying to point out is the simple fact that what the PA and their school text book maps and the terrorist organization refer to as "historical Palestine" is what was constructed a mere 80 years ago and that it is very interesting that their "ancient land" only encompasses what Israel sits on; not what was every considered Palestine. Get the point now?
It is not the extremist elements when it is the official statement put out by the government and what they print in their school text books and teach to children. You argument that it only encompasses extremist elements if extremely weak when their is a lot of evidence to the contrary.
I can see that you're just venting your anger about certain elements on your blog, but please don't take it out on me, and make generalizations simply because one person is hounding you. There is nowhere in the article that has anything to do with the refugee problem or mutual destruction or trying to put anything down. If you like, please re-read the article a little more carefully. Your opinions are always welcome, but if they have nothing to do with anything I wrote, please vent that anger else-where.
-OC
Olah:
Your point about how
"historical Palestine [...] what was constructed a mere 80 years ago
merely underlines my point about endless referring to dim and distant pasts to justify what's going on today. It happens on both sides. It's not too hard to find Israeli blogs that will justify a Greater Israel stretching well into Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt, based on "ancient history". On those lines the UK (just one mere example) should take back half the world, including Eire.
One American blogger, "for once and for all" "proved demonstrably" "using ancient historical data" and "ancient cartography" that Palesine and Palestinians have never existed! And so on, and so on, ad infinitum and ad nauseam.
BTW, I didn't come here in anger as you assert. I found you blog in Blogger Search.
WPUGIT:
How can you stoop so low as to make such silly and decidedly unfunny jokes about the death of this woman? Seems to me you're trying to attract a little limelight on the back of one individual's quite horrible death... That's rather in bad taste.
gert, (from the Husband)
Purhaps I will try to explain.
It seems that the palestinian fight over palestine, is the same area that France and Britian Decided it should be in the 1923 Sieks Picko (SP?)Ageement when they took the area over frok the Ottomans after WWI.
What we here are saying is that it's a little wierd, why are tey only fighting for this area, and not for the Entire land, (jordan, parts of syria, Lebenon ETC.).
Unlike them the Israeli argument is settled on compremise. The original plan was to include areas up to the Litani river, parts of Syria (there are actually lands bought by the JNF that are in Syria), and the Mountain range in Jordan. The question is, if Israel would have been that size would the palestinians, demand only the Area of palestine or would they want everything that is part of Israel?
Here is a good example:
http://www.geographicus.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=G/PROD/Palestine-spruneri-1850
go to that link and take a look at what is included in palestine back then. there are some MAJOR changes from then to today's map, yet the palestinians only seem to want the area that ISrael is in. I have never heard anyone ask Jordan, Syria or Lebenon to give up parts of thier land "back" to the Palestinians.
Concluding this, what I am trying to say is that what was once the region called palestine, changed many time in the past few Cent. and therefor Historic Palestine is a meaningless term.
Bottom line, If Israel can learn to give up parts of it's land in order for there to be peace the palestinians can do the same. They should learn to control the Areas they have (Gaza, for example) before going and demanding more.
Yeah, I've seen them. What do they tell you?
That's not true, either, because there was violence and massacres committed against the Jews before 1947. E.g., the Hevron massacre of 1929. How do you explain that violence? I know it's very hard to understand how violence against Jews simply for being Jews is hard to understand for non-Jews. But, unfortunately, it can be that simple and that horrible.
-OC
Sol, this might have to be one of those cases where we will agree to disagree. If you read the history of the Jews by the Arabs pre-1947 and pre-state being considered, you will that violence against partition was not the only reason behind the Palestinians' aggression. I believe it is a motive of religion, not of foreign invasion. The Palestinian Arabs and Muslims have persecuted and badly treated the "infidels" of their country and provinces. The Christians are being persecuted in Gaza. The Druze were terribly persecuted by the Muslims. Look at the history of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. We people of other religions interfere with the Muslims' goals of reconstituting the Pan-Arab region that they once conquered a couple of millenia ago. They want it back. Israel greatly interferes with that goal, and we being Jews is even worse. Watch some episodes from MEMRITV.org or pmw.org. We are called pigs and descendants of monkeys. The Muslims congregants are told that it is their Muslim duty to kill us. This is religiously and ideologically motivated. Why else would Iran be aiming to destroy us now? See what I'm saying?
-OC
Did you know that the Elders of the Protocol of Zion is among the most popular selling books in the Muslim world? Like, I said, the Muslims aren't fond of any other religion, but they save an especially vicious place in their hearts for the evil Jews.
-OC
Sol, if you want to believe that the Nazis were worse for the Jews than the Muslim countries, that's fine and perfectly legitimate. No Muslim country has systematically exterminated 6 million Jews, but that, in no way excuses their behavior. The members of the Neturei Karta who visited Iran went for the specific reason and accepted for the specific reason of delegitimizng the State of Israel. Of course, Iran could excuse the fact that they were Jews. Here were these stereotypical Jews coming in and agreeing with the Iranian government that Israel should be wiped off the face of the eart. What great PR for the Iranian government and mullahs to spread their cause. I would also like to tell you that these minute minority are not considered Jews in my eyes, and according to many laws of Judaism. When you come out and wish the death of fellow Jews and make a Desecration of The Name (G-d), you are liable to be excommunicated. I've seen the interview of these people. And, don't think that these guys wouldn't have been killed had they done something wrong while in Iran. And, let me tell you something. If, in the propaganda stage of Hitler's plans, if any Jews would have come forward agreeing with his plans for driving all Jews out of Europe, he sure as hell would have had them on the platform with him. Don't fool ideology of destruction with magnanomism.
Next, the other article you quoted is purely a puff piece. Remember the simple fact. Iran and every other Muslim/Arab country have no free press. The government controls everything that goes out. To think that they did not have some influence or control over what the author wrote or what the people did is completely denying the fact that it's all controlled by the mullahs and the gvernment. It was actually recently found out that Iran had the last Jewish synagogue destroyed, and are building a mosque in its place. That synagogue was reputed to be thousands of years old.
Another example of the fluffness of the article is the fact that the author does not really delve into the reason the thousands of years old flourishing Jewish community that once existed in Iran is gone. Iran, among the other Muslim country, persecuted and forcibly expelled thousands upon thousands of their Jews after Israel was created in 1948 and subsequently after each war Israel won. To think that there is no duress under which the Jewish people are quoted is ridiculous. The last quote is ripe with those hints. No Jew would say that it's a positive thing to live under Islamic rule considering how you are treated as a non-Muslim and. Under Islamic rule, you are treated as a second class citizen. There are certain jobs you can't have. Your business is subject to be confiscated at any time, and you must pay dhimmi and other second class citizen taxes. To think that this man isn't speaking because there's a proverbial gun to his head is to ignore all the facts surrounding the bigger picture. To say that "some problems exist" is the understatement of the millenium.
Finally, please do not exagerate Hitler's dependence of Christianity as his reasons for anti-semetism because it's just not true. The Passion may have inspired him, to a small extent, but Hitler shunned religion in general. Deautchland was above anything else, even G-d. The Jews were inferior because they were Jews. They were controlling the economy, stealing all the jobs from the true Germans. They were not Aryans and made of impure and inferior blood. All problems in Germany stemmed from the Jewish invasion. This has nothing to do with "killing Christ". This has to do with pure hatred for the Jews as Jews. And, anti-semetism based on religious faith is even more potent and more dangerous. Because, it has no logic and no rational, so it's that much more deadly. Hitler and his National Socialism had reasons based on logic. Albeit, deformed and incorrect logic. He tried to use science to prove the Jews' inferiority. If that's proved wrong, people can just walk away from it. But, when you have your chief cleric stating that Allah has commanded you to hate and kill the Jews because they're infidels and pigs and the descendents of monkeys, it becomes attached to your religious faith. If you don't believe the sheik's words then you must be a bad Muslim. If you believe and aim to carry out the sheik's goals must mean I'm a good Muslim. Allah said this murder and rage and hatred is OK.
Anti-semetism is anti-semetism. Islamic anti-semetism and the core of Christian anti-semetism are exactly the same. For thousands of yeard, the Christians were persecuting and killing the Jews not because of some trupped up inferiority or logic but because they killed Jesus. It's taken thousands of years before the Chrisitians came out and said we don't believe that anymore, and we're sorry. That anti-semetism has evolved into what Hitler crafted it to be. We're inferior, money grubbing, trying to take over the world, etc. Islamic anti-semetism is a combination of the two. It is rooted in religion, yet it has taken on the aspect that the Protocols of The Elders of Zion is true, and that Hitler was right all along about the Jews. This evolution and combination of the two types of anti-semetism is far worse. So, in a sense, you're right. I can't compare Christian anti-semetism to Islamic anti-semetism, because Islamic anti-semetism is far worse.
-OC
sol, I love having you comment here. Unlike some other blogs we know, they shall remain nameless, I don't like just having comments that are sounding boards to my ideas and opinions. I like being able to have discussions and arguments with people. It pumps the blood. It's good for you. I enjoy it. I hope you do too.
-OC
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