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Monday, June 26, 2006

"Influenza, Madam?"

Hat Tip: (LGF)
According to a statement from the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, they have successfully finished making numerous biological and chemical weapons.
The Aksa Martyrs Brigades announced on Sunday that its members have succeeded in manufacturing chemical and biological weapons. In a leaflet distributed in the Gaza Strip, the group, which belongs to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah Party, said the weapons were the result of a three-year effort. According to the statement, the first of its kind, the group has managed to manufacture and develop at least 20 different types of biological and chemical weapons. The group said its members would not hesitate to add the new weapons to Kassam rockets that are being fired at Israeli communities almost every day. It also threatened to use the weapons against IDF soldiers if Israel carried out its threats to invade the Gaza Strip. “We want to tell [Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert and [Defense Minister Amir] Peretz that your threats don’t frighten us,” the leaflet said. “We will surprise you with our new weapons the moment the first soldier sets foot in the Gaza Strip.” Read the rest...

Even if this is a gross exaggeration or simply Fatah's way of trying to regain power from Hamas, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if this was also a warning to Hamas and other opposing factions that if they mess with them, they'll pay with the price with a serious case of the flu or anthrax. When the United States thought that Saddam Hussein was reinstituting his chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs, they went to war with Iraq. I don't know how many more loop holes the world and Israel wants to find in order to classify the rockets shooting into Israel as NOT an act of war, but you're going to be hard pressed to find a loop hole for the definition of an act of war when an enemy is threatening your coutry with chemical and biological weapons as a threat to coerce your actions. Even if they defined a biological weapons as putting the common cold in a rocket, or even if this is only true by one chemical or biological weapon, or even if this isn't true at all, Israel MUST TAKE THIS THREAT SERIOUSLY. Even if this is even slightly or remotely true, Israel and the rest of the world has to ask how they got this technology, and who's giving it to them.

I just don't get it! I'm so pist, I could spit nails! If Canada was shooting "home-made" rockets into the US, Canada wouldn't exist anymore. No, but Israel gets shelled day after day, it's "Kassam Schmassam" (thank you for that little sound-bit Mr. Shimon "Ani Lozer?" Peres), they're home-made, and Israel is still occupying Gaza, bs, bs, bs... It's not classified as an act of war by Israel, as the Knesset and military establishment promised as they planned the Disengagement. One of the reasons that I supported the Disengagement was because of the profusely stated promise that after Israel is out of Gaza and not an "occupier" any-more, if one rocket flies into Israel from Gaza, it would be considered and act of war, and they would go in and decimate Hamas and Co. and the PA and start it from scratch. Well, maybe, they meant 1 millionth and 1 rocket, but I'm so diheartened by what's happened. What's more amazing is the fact that Olmert is so convinced that even with the Gaza debacle and the fact that the government hasn't been able to agree on any part of some semblence of a policy on how to deal with terrorism from Gaza in the face of no longer being an occupying force, that the country should believe him that another pull-out from an area 10 times the size of Gaza, the Yehuda and Shomron, is just what the doctor ordered to solve all our problems.

AM I LIVING IN THE TWILIGHT ZONE HERE?!? HOW IS IT THAT THERE ISN'T A MASS PROTEST GOING ON IN FRONT OF OLMERT'S HOUSE AND THE KNESSET?!? HOW IS IT THAT THIS, THIS THREAT OF BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS FROM THE GROUP RUN BY ABU MAZEN, ISN'T THE LAST STRAW TOWARD A DECLARATION OF WAR?!? HOW IS IT THAT SO MANY MEMBERS OF THE KNESSET, INCLUDING THE PERSON SWORN TO LEAD OUR MILITARY AND OUR COUNTRY, CAN STILL WEAR THEIR ROSE COLORED GLASSES IN THE FACE OF WHAT CANNOT BE CALLED ANYTHING ELSE BUT SIMPLY WAR?!?

I want to rip my hair out. Please, somebody sane, tell me what to do. Tell me that G-d has some plan for us that will see everything work out OK. I don't want me, not one more friend, or one more family member to be a candidate to be a "victim of peace". Please, some-one tell me what the hell is going on?

18 Comments:

At 7:13 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Checking e.g. Google News, it seems only the JPost has picked up on this. A few like LGF and PowerLine blog have followed their lead.

For what otherwise would be ostentibly a major story, that's very little coverage.

I've caught the JPost at least once making a deliberately false claim, re. the numbers of settlers withdrawn from Gaza: they claimed "tens of thousands" but Israeli figures show it to be less than 8,000.

Something smell fishy and it ain't the antrax...

 
At 7:38 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

gert, jpost, unlike the the Palestinian Times, is a reputable news paper and a reputable news source. When they made the "tens of thousands" comment, it was before the exact census had been released and before people moved out before the Disengagement. How that counts as a "deliberately false claim", I have no idea. I didn't see you coming here and saying something "smells fishy" after the Gazan beach killings. Then again, your precious and "legitimate" news sources, The Guardian and Unlimited are still claiming that Israeli artillery fire is to blame for the deaths. But, if your example is the best you can come up with to degrade the Jerusalem Post's legitimacy, your standards are pretty high. I guess you don't think any of your local papers are good enough.

And, why would you assume this would be covered as a major story? I mean, it's only Jews' lives being threatened. The press is too busy chastising Israel for responding or "retaliating" to the deaths of 2 of their soldiers and the kidnapping of another one.

Regardless, it doesn't seem that you read my post carefully, as this report wasn't even the focus of my point. I said even if this isn't true, it's about damn time that Israel' government stand up and protect its citizens, appropriately. Oh, but that wouldn't bother you. You're English, right? Yeah, your government's done a swell job of protecting you. Good ol' Ken's really looking out for you.
-OC

 
At 8:40 PM, Blogger General Yasser Arafat said...

OC-

I'd advise you to bite the bullet. You can go nuts in Israel. Understand:

ISRAELIS ARE INSANE!

The fact that they couldn't care less comes from a mental illness called the Oslo Syndrome, in which the aggressor is seen as someone to be pitied.

Most Israelis are afflicted with this illness.

If you can't handle it, I'd seriously consider moving back to whichever country you came from.

 
At 8:48 PM, Blogger Greg said...

Olah: as I said on Mad Zionist's post about the Palis' nukes, though I doubt they really are getting any(pun fully intended) from their Iranian/Syrian/Egyptian/etc. allies, their warning to Israel(the words make me sick) is reason enough for all-out war.

 
At 9:47 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Olah:

The quote was part of an article published on June 8, 2006 (find it on my blog).

The exact quote is: tens of thousands of people thrown out of their homes. That's not misleading (even the "thrown out" part) in view of the known figures?

Of course it is: it's merely playing the sympathy card, even if it involves lying (factual lying, not opining).

The idea that it's not a newsworthy story because it's "only Jews" that are being threathened is ludicrous: Israel has plenty, plenty, overwhelming International support to make such a story a headliner in most media.

The truth is there is probably no substance to it at all. But WMD are still fashionable to some media pundits, I guess...

 
At 10:42 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

general, you're right enough. We'll just have to see what happens.

Greg, you're totally right, and your point is something that gert fails to understand.

gert, I will digress, but, as I said before, if that one mistake is your excuse to discredit the newspaper entirely, you're going to have to do better than that, and, again, I suspect you don't read your local papers then either. Saying that they did that to get extra sympathy, "of course", is so fellacious, I don't know what to do with it. 8,000+ people were deliberately thrown out of their homes. If you don't have sympathy from the start for them, then I don't really know what to say about your humanity. Also, if you would look at the headlines carefully through-out the day, as you said you searched google news, I would take a damn good look at how they're worded. Most of them have words like "retaliation", "restraint", "Hamas calling for peace", "home-made rockets", etc. That does not be-speak of international support, at least not from the international press, which was who I was specifically referring to. I was not talking about international governments, and even that support is minimal. Israel is getting shelled on a daily basis, its soldiers are being murdered and kidnapped, and the international community is asking Israel to show "restraint" so as not to "rock the boat" of the current situation. If "home-made rockets" (as the press so loves to call them)fell into London from, let's say, oh I don't know, France, what would your country do? Last time I checked, when they thought a guy wearing a heavy coat in the middle of summer might be suspicious, they shot him several times and killed him.

But, no, with Israel, "restraint" is the word of the day coming from every other country where this kind of violence would automatically be considered an act of war. But, that's OK. The world has no limits to the double standards it holds to Israel. And, it seems, neither do you.
-OC

 
At 3:26 AM, Blogger shlemazl said...

As you say, mere fact that Palestinian fractions believe this to be popular makes me wonder... What the hell is wrong with this people?

 
At 4:59 PM, Blogger Gert said...

The 1967 war which resulted in the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank was of course not an act of war. Palestinian militants launch attacks on Israel for no reason at all. There is no "cycle of violence". The Palestinians are simply to blame for everything and Israel is completely innocent in all this.

It seems you believe this. Then you will believe anything, of course.

 
At 5:17 PM, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Gert,
The Cycle of Violance, does not exist. and if you believe that it does, it's you not me who will believe anything.
The Attacks on Israel from Gaza, Do not have a rational reason. I am sure there is a reason, but not one you would ever agree to (killing Jews/Israelis for Fun - is a reason). Can you tell me what they have achieved from ANY of the attacks on Israel since we pulled out of GAZA?? Has it helped them in ANY WAY?? Just attacking, in order to kill is not a rational reason in my book.

Finally, I cannot find Anywhere on this Site that either of us EVER said that Israel in completely innocent. Of course Israel is guilty of things, so is every other country in the world.

 
At 7:09 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Firstly, I've never denied Israel's right to defend itself against attacks, that would be totally illogical on my part. Israel has that right, period. (Do you want me to say it again?)

But if you fail to see that what is seen by most Palestinians (and many moderate Israelis, by the way) as an ongoing occupation of their territory, is the rationale behind their armed struggle, then you must indeed arrive at the fallacious "they just want to kill us" position.

Also, I've maintained for a long time and will continue to maintain that Palestinian attacks on Israel (in whatever form) are counterproductive and tactically a mistake, when it comes to securing a two state solution. But to ignore the motives for their armed resistance, is merely turning a blind eye to the root causes of the problem.

 
At 10:38 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

gert, one simple question. Are you completely and utterly forgetting the fact the Israel withdrew from Gaza last summer? Or, are you simply conveniently ignoring or forgetting that it happened? No, wait, you're right. We didn't totally disengage. We're still paying for the Palestinians' electricity and water and haven't forced them to do it on their own.

So, how do you rationally and logically explain away the fact that they're shooting rockets into land that is Israel proper and land that has never been "occupied" after the "occupation" of Gaza officially ended almost a year ago? What occupation are they struggling against? I also love how you use the nice and cozy euphemism to define terrorism as "armed resistance". What were the bombings of 7/7? Please, tell me what the root causes are that would lead one to be able to rationally and logically justify what is going on at this very moment in time? I would love to hear this.

Lastly, has any of these actions worked toward the goal, as you say it; the goal is to secure a two state solution, of achieving two states? If that were even the goal in all of this, then how do you explain the fact that the Palestinians have not declared independence in Gaza yet? Finally, if that is what they're fighting for, it's completely redundant and actually puts them farther away from their goals. IF, for the sake of argument, you're right, and they're shooting rockets into Sderot and killing and kidnapping soldiers in order to secure their own state, it's totally pointless, because they're shedding blood for a goal they were going to get anyways through peace negotations. But, I guess the Camp David Peace talks (both of them) from 2000 simply slipped your mind.

From all of this, they are not going to get a state past the boundaries of Gaza, yet there are no settlements in Gaza left to shell that would lead one, like you, to be able to rationalize and logically and morally say that what the Palestinians are doing is simply armed resistance against occupation. So, why are they bombing Israeli towns and cities? That's not "armed resistance" anymore. They've stated that their goal for shelling Sderot is to get the people to evacuate the town in fear. So what? It's not like they would get Sderot even if their goal was achieved, so what's the point? Where's your explanation here? There is none other than attempting the stated goal of destroying the entire state of Israel. I know, I know, that can't be true. They've only said that that's what they've wanted to do for 20+ years now. I wonder what they'll have to do to get a person to believe that they mean what they say...
-OC

 
At 11:08 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Olah:

Firstly, it is pointless to try and separate Gaza issue from the West Bank issue, as a Palestinian state would be comprised of both parts. Northern Gaza is indeed used as a base for resistance against the Occupation, the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza itself doesn't change anything for those wanting to wage war.

There is no doubt that some Palestinian factions dream of the destruction of Israel and that some of the violence directed at Israel comes from these quarters. The Palestinians aren't, however, some monolithic bloc of people that all think alike, just like not all Israelis dream of an Arab-free Eretz Israel.

It seems there is an agreement in the making between Hamas and Fatah, regarding the implicit recognition of Israel, as a step forward toward a negotiated two-state solution.

Your suggestion that Gaza should have declared independence is unrealistic: Gaza is a mere handkerchief in size and will be by far the smallest part of the Palestinian state, if there ever is one.

As regards the difference between "terrorism" and "armed resistance", I've espoused my views on this a while back on my blog. By your own definition, many Israeli acts of violence during the struggle for independence would have to be seen as "acts of terrorism".

As always, you make the classical mistake of looking at the birth of Israel and the subsequent conflict as something that is somehow unique: it isn't and there are many parallels to be drawn with similar historical situations of a people's struggle for self-determination. Nation building isn't usually a pretty sight and more often than not a rather bloody affair. The history of many, if not most, European countries is testimony to this. Try coming of that moral high horse of yours and realise that Israel is no different from many other countries in its formative decades.

 
At 12:56 AM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

gert, your post-modern views are very touching. Really, they are, but I digress. First of all, it looks like you've swallowed the hog-wash of the main-stream media and are referring to the "Prisoner's Letter", whereby there would be "implicit" recognition of the state of Israel by Hamas. In reality, the letter states no such thing, and you would do well to actually read the letter. Hamas has clearly stated, but again you seem to not want to take them at their word, that they would accept a state within the 1967 borders, but not two states. This IMPLICITY implies that they're saying that they will only accept one state on all the land: PALESTINE. Didn't look like Israel was anywhere in their plans.

You seem to be thinking that when I say the goals of these terrorists, you're thinking that I'm referring to all the Palestinians. Well, unless you think all Palestinians are terrorists, than you would be speaking about all Palestinians. The Palestinian terrorist groups that are shooting rockets into Israel and kidnapping and murdering soldiers are all groups with charters with clearly stated aims at destroying the state of Israel. Do they have to spell it out more clearly than that for you to actually believe that they mean what they say?

It's very interesting that you say that there's no reason for Gaza to declare independence. Firstly, Israel declared independence when they had been "given" unlivable land to live on, but I digress there. The Palestinians' failure to declare independence has many ramifications. Many of them legal. Firstly, they are now living in what would would be internationally recognized as "No man's land". The Israelis have officially declared their end to the occupation, and this has been acknowledged by international bodies. However, the Palestinians have not claimed it as theirs. Therefore, the land belongs to no-one. As long as that exists, Israel has full right to control their land, air, and sea passages, because these rights only belong to sovereign nations. You and the rest of the world can't claim that that's just another form of "occupation". Secondly, as long as the Palestinians don't declare independence, they can still call on the world to support them, including Israel. You would like to think that it's because they're struggling for West Bank freedom, and they won't claim independence until the West Bank is theirs. Well, that's a fine and noble gesture if there were any proof leading in that direction other than you making the suppisition for them. There are a lot of perks for the PA and Palestinians as long as they don't declare independence. A lot of perks that they would lost automatically if they did so. One of those being a continued "armed resistance". But, if you feel all warm and cozy with your theory, you can keep it.

Lastly, I never said that Israel has never committed acts of terrorism in their quest for independence. However, there's a big moral difference between these two situations. The biggest one being that when acts of terrorism were committed by members of the Lehi and Etzel groups, they were immediately condemned by the rest of the Jewish fighting force and the entire Jewish world. When the British Ambassador to the Middle East was assasinated, Ben-Gurion called for the immediate arrest of all those involved, and declared that all these members should be turned over to the British police. However, when acts of terrorism are committed against Jews, the Palestinian population cheers and reveres them. They name streets and town after "martyrs". They make t-shirts for them to sell to little children. The mothers praise their children going out to die. To compare to what's going on today to what happened 60 years ago is making a moral relative comparison that just doesn't fit and has no relation to each-other. Lastly, to say that terrorism, or "armed resistance" as you say, is a legitimate method of gaining sovereignty and morally justifying the killing innocent men, woman, and children as just a means to an end is actually extremely sickening. Blowing up busses, killing athletes, shooting babies in the head is not just another "means", as "every other country has done", to achieving an end goal of a state. How you can actually swallow your own bile of saying that what the Palestinian terrorists are doing are just their way of self-determination, I have no idea. It's absolutely repugnant.
-OC

 
At 6:10 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Olah:

Regards "post-modernism", I'll let it pass: not really worth responding to.

In your point about "implicit recognition" [of Israel] you show what a minority position you're actually taking. The whole world, including your own Government, will see the agreement as a small but significant step forward. For explicit recognition, we'll have to wait considerably longer but it's rather a question of slowly edging forward than to expect sea changes: no one likes to make a u-turn or hand over all their bargaining chips at once.

As regards the violent groups that commit attacks on Israel, these have to be reigned in. If that's not possible, they'll need to be destroyed: they're a serious obstacle to peace. But they don't represent all Palestinians, or even all Hamas. Your own ex-chief of the Mossad (Halevy, if I remember well) stated yesterday he believed the current situation had been brought about by the Damascus based "rejectionist" group. They're almost a world on their own.

It's not a matter of "claiming" independence: borders between Israel and the future state of Palestine have to be agreed mutually, only then does the creation of a Palestinian state make any sense at all. This is an entirely reasonable viewpoint and one your current Government has no problem accepting. It does have a problem negotiating with partner that doesn't recognise it. This is what needs to be worked on first and foremost, not somehow "claiming" independence for Gaza.

Re terrorism. Firstly, I'm not justifying terrorism (I'll be courteous and use your term), what I've pointed out on my blog (see "defining terrorism") is that using terror as a weapon is nothing new or particularly associated with terrorism: WW II is full of terror tactics. The German Luftwaffe bombed London (and many other major cities) in an attempt to break morale. In return the Allies bombed the hell out of the Germans, e.g. in one long raid on Dresden killing 300,000 civilians, more than were killed in Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined. It's now generally recognised that such attemps at breaking civilian morale are futile and ususally have the opposite effect of infuriating, entrenching and galvanising the population. Hamas have not so long made a statement condemning suicide attacks as "a thing of the past".

I understand that it's perhaps harder for you than it is for me to look at these things with some detachment.

 
At 9:21 PM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

Oh, gert. It's fun to read your rantings. They really are entertaining. Truely, they are. Like, Osaid, I'll take your points one at a time.

You always seem to read parts of my writing and then ignore the rest or whatever is inconvenient to your argument. Hamas has NEVER, I repeat NEVER agreed to any sort of implicit recognition of Israel. Actually, they have repeatedly come out and said that this is absolutely not true, and they refuse to accept the State of Israel. The "Prisoner's Letter" that you are still referring to NEVER EVEN MENTIONS ISRAEL. Again, read the letter and Hamas' actual words before you actually take it upon yourself to speak for them. You're speaking of a reality that doesn't exist. Again, you represent the typical liberal in the Western World. What's it going to take for you to actually believe that Hamas and all these other terrorist groups mean what they say? I'm afraid to know the answer that will finally have you admitting, "Oh yeah, when Hamas committed themselves to destroying Israel, they actually meant it."

The above paragraph also related to the second paragraph that you wrote. Hezbollah is funded by Iran. So is Hamas. Are you going to tell me that because funding and orders come from other places, they don't represent Hamas' goals and ambitions? That's completely ridiculous. It's totally logical for the order to come from Damascus, if that's what happened, as Hamas has one of its HEADQUARTERS stationed there. I don't know if you knew that little tid-bit of information. You're also failing to acknowledge the fact that the Chieff of Staff of the Army also has intelligence that this operation came from the TOP-DOWN. That means that Hamilyah (sp?) was fully aware of this operation, and either was involved in planning it, or gave his tacit authorization to have it carried out. But, you're probably right. There are probably members of HAMAS who are warm and fuzzy and like to hold stuffed animals and would be appalled at killing soldiers. They're just part of Hamas because they want friends, not because they're sworn to kill all Jews and to the destruction of Israel. You're probably right. My bad.

Your whole point on Gaza does nothing to refute my previous statement on why they haven't claimed independence yet, nor do you even address any of the points, which leads me to believe you didnt read it. All you're doing is making suppistions and guesses on why it hasn't happened based on no proof what-so-ever. Again, it's a nice, warm, and fuzzy theory, but you have absolutely nothing to back it up. What actions have been done to even remotely make you think that this why they have not declared independence yet? What are you basing this on?

Ummm... I hate to break the news to you, but the Dresden bombing did NOT result in the deaths of 300,000 deaths. Have you been reading Mr Irving's work again? Now, we've talked about this already. But, I digress. I also hate to tell you this, but during times of war, at worst, what you're discussing is War Crimes, not terrorism. But, we can get into symantics later.

Hamas has never condemned suicide attacks. That comment was made in the context of the fact that the IDF has done such a good job at preventing suicide attacks, that putting the planning, effort, and man-power into doing them now would be pointless, because it would simply result in the arrests and deaths of more of their hierarchy. It's a "thing of the past", not because they now view them as futile at gaining their goal, but because, at the moment, they just won't be able to succeed at doing them. If that variable were to change tomorrow, you'd see suicide attacks, or at least their attempts, escalate once again.

gert, you can ignore the post-modern and moral-relativist label all you want, but the shoe fits, my friend. You call me detached, because I'm not falling for your pitiful attempts to justify the unjustifiable. You never answer anything substantial and just try to make excuses and compare shooting babies in cold blood to just a means to an end that every other country has done to achieve independence. First of all, that's completely untrue. Second of all, even if it were true, it's still completely unjustifiable, and your continuing to make excuses is the perfect example of your post-modern and moral-relativist views.
-OC

 
At 11:31 AM, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Oh, by the way, a little fyi for you gert. Since you seem to believe that jpost is not a legitimate paper, I thought you would be happy to note that Reuters has also reported Fatah's claim of possessing biological and chemical weapons. Are they legitimate enough for you?
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-29T013909Z_01_L29258645_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ROCKET.xml
-OC

 
At 7:31 PM, Blogger Gert said...

Olah:

I never said the JPost wasn't a legitimate paper: I said I caught it lying ostentibly once.

Seen any of the "leaflets" yet? Seen any copies or facsimiles yet? I'll believe it when I see it.

As regards the comment of 9.21 PM, I'm not going to respond any longer: I'm wasting my time trying to argue with someone who is so convinced that she and she only holds the truth in the palm or her hand that she has to resort also to associating a commenter with David Irving (second time now). So, the last word will be yours: "post-modern", blahdiblah, "moral relativism" blah blah blahdiblah...

Congrats on your wedding anniversary: it must be difficult finding agreement with Oleh, as he seem far more open to debate and enquiry than you are.

So, I will not be commenting on posts by you Olah, it's as useful as fitting wheels to a tomato.

 
At 2:58 AM, Blogger Olah Chadasha said...

gert, are you trying to touch or infringe on my personal life? Because if you are, then you're through here. You can argue and debate all you want, but you will not attack my or anyone else's personal life on this venue. You got that?!? This is your last warning. You've already been reprimanded for calling other bloggers names. Three strikes, and you're out mate. Wanna take another swing?

As for the rest of your comment. It's a nice little cop-out on your part to get out of actually debating, but that's cool. I see how you play it. Oh, that's right. You don't. You never rebutt, and you never actually answer questions. You just rant and rant without any acknowledgemants of facts. It's good talking to you. You bring a whole new liberal perspective to everything. It's good stuff.
-OC

 

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